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Ian Murdock responds to Debian-DCC Alliance trademark dispute

By David 'cdlu' Graham on October 19, 2005 (8:00:00 AM)

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Earlier today we posted an article about the dispute between the Debian Project and the former Debian Common Core Alliance, now known as the DCC Alliance. Before press time we had not received a response from DCCA leader Ian Murdock, the founder of Progeny. Now we have.

NewsForge: You stated in your blog that you would like to see the DCC Alliance included as an official Debian sub-project. What moves are you and the DCC Alliance making toward this end?

Murdock: We're trying to be additive. Like any members of any community, we see more that could be done in areas that are of interest to us, and we're stepping up to do the work. We explicitly *don't* want to create yet another Debian derivative. Given that, it makes sense to do as much as we can within the context of the existing project.

NF: Do you believe the DCC Alliance's use of the Debian logo in its own logo is in compliance with the Debian Open Use Logo License?

Murdock: Yes. The Debian Open Use Logo License says, in its entirety, "This logo or a modified version may be used by anyone to refer to the Debian project, but does not indicate endorsement by the project." So, according to that, the only requirement is that the logo be used to refer to the Debian project, which we're obviously doing.

NF: One of the gripes publicly listed by Debian's negotiator with the DCCA is that the Alliance has refused to issue a press release or formal announcement about the change in name from the Debian Common Core Alliance, or any kind of public explanation as to why the name was changed.

Murdock: We haven't refused to issue a press release; we just felt it wasn't the appropriate venue for such an announcement. I posted a message to my blog because I know members of the press who have appropriate context follow it, and if they thought their readers would consider the announcement news they would write about it. No one did that. People have clearly read it though -- I've had a few conversations since then, and I've been told, "I saw your blog; I won't refer to it as Debian Common Core," and the pieces that have mentioned the DCCA since then have all properly referred to it as the DCC Alliance.

NF: Are you familiar with the Debian-Volatile project? Could the DCCA be served by joining up with or supporting this existing sub-project instead of starting an alternative?

Murdock: Sure. We're open to working with any existing subproject. Working with debian-volatile would be a natural way to satisfy one of our goals, providing up-to-date drivers above a slower moving core, but that's just one piece of the puzzle. We're also thinking a lot about the core itself, building a certification program, and other issues.

NF: How does being the founder and namesake of the Debian Project affect your role and perhaps even you personally in a dispute between yourself and the Debian Project as it currently exists?

Murdock: I wouldn't call what currently exists a dispute between myself and the Debian project. If anything, it's a dispute between a handful of Debian developers and myself, and even that is exaggerating it.

NF: Do you believe that the frequent reference in DCCA press releases to your role as founder and namesake of Debian creates tension between you and Debian's developers, and may even contribute to the current disagreement?

Murdock: One of the things I've learned over the decade or so I've been doing this is that when your work is visible to large numbers of people, anything you do creates tension between you and somebody. :-) To actually answer your question: I'm Debian's founder. I have opinions about Debian, just like everyone else. Yes, the fact that I'm Debian's founder may draw more attention to my opinions about Debian than to those of others. I'm not sure what I can do about that short of not expressing them, and I'm not about to do that.

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on Ian Murdock responds to Debian-DCC Alliance trademark dispute

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well...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2005 04:06 AM
what does deb think?

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Re:well...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2005 10:53 AM
This whole thing makes the Debian users sound like a bunch of cry babies. This is especially true of the logo issue. The DCC Alliance is clearly meeting the terms of the license.

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Re:well...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 15, 2005 01:46 PM
That might not help them with the strength of their trademark though.

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careful Ian!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2005 11:28 AM
Yes, the fact that I'm Debian's founder may draw more attention to my opinions about Debian than to those of others.

Yes, you did found Debian and for this we all owe you a huge THANKS, plenty of respect and immense credibility. And we do. But please remember that you created Debian *free*, and thus you are not a "Debian-guru" in the Jobs sense and that your opinion, while carrying weight and authority, does not make you a decision-maker more than any other member of our community. We will listen to your opinion with utmost respect, but we might exercise the option to disagree with you - just as you wanted it when you created Debian.

The Debian you founded is now owned by the Debian community and only the delagates, the project leader, in the end, and a General Resolution have the final say.

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Debian leader work at Progeny , Faulty leadership

Posted by: Moulinneuf on October 20, 2005 07:35 PM
<a href="http://www.debian.org/vote/2005/vote_001" title="debian.org">http://www.debian.org/vote/2005/vote_001</a debian.org>

<a href="http://www.debian.org/vote/2005/platforms/branden" title="debian.org">http://www.debian.org/vote/2005/platforms/branden</a debian.org>

"I am in my fifth year of employment at Progeny"

Debian as add faulty Leadership since the start.

Personnaly I tought that Branden Robinson would have been a different leader , but he is not what he said he would do and be , he is very similar to what the prevous one where.

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Faulty leadership? Hardly!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2005 09:07 PM
Look at what Debian has achieved:

1) stability & security on par with BSD
2) 11 architectures
3) 15000+ packages perfectly integrated
4) 1000 developers
5) many offsprings (Knoppix, Ubuntu, etc.)
6) fastest growing distro for years
7) completely community oriented and community controlled
8) Social Contract & Guidelines

No other distribution comes even close to such achievement!

Could that have been achieved with "faulty leadership"? Hardly. (in particular when you keep in mind that the Project Leader has some real power and influence).

I think Debian is one of the biggest and most amazing sucesses of the free software movement and the Debian leadership has my utmost success and admiration.

If you judge leaders by their results rather than their promises Debian leaders are just about the best leaders one could dream of!

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Re:Faulty leadership? Hardly!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2005 10:02 PM
co-sign

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best leadership *ever*

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 21, 2005 12:53 AM
Debian has the best leadership in the history of software (heck - its a leadership elected by the developers themselves)!

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Re:best leadership *ever*

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 21, 2005 04:40 AM
Debian has the best leadership in the history of software (heck - its a leadership elected by the developers themselves)!

I agree, Branden is doing a great job. Sometimes I wonder if he's become disillusioned at all by the process, looks to me (from the outside) like making Debian is a lot like making sausage.

Besides, who even if knows if a democracy is the best way to create software? In fact Debian is not just a democracy, but a democracy with an extremely weak executive - a mostly toothless DPL elected to short one-year terms. Most free and open source projects work as a sort of enlightened dictatorship or meritocracy. Debian is quite unique, and has had its share of problems that may be related to that uniqueness - the Sarge release delay was an absolute disaster that unquestionably harmed Debian like a shotgun blow to the back, and the lack of momentum toward trimming architectures or future release plans signal future disasters are on the way.

Best of luck to Branden and company. They've made some great strides so far. But this sucker ain't out of the woods yet.

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Debian Core Keep on bulshiting themself ...

Posted by: Moulinneuf on October 21, 2005 04:40 AM

1) Is not Debian , its GNU/Linux works
2) Lol !!!
3) RFLOL !!!
4) 1000 >>> FREE developper ( its closer to 1500 now I think , if not higher. )

5) Is due to Debian Leadership lacking

6) Absolute bulshit. ( Ubuntu and Knoppix success are not due to Debian )

7) Not really , but youre delusionnal , no point in arguing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
8) the thing that is the least respected on both<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

"No other distribution comes even close to such achievement!"

Mandriva
Red Hat
Ubuntu
Fedora
Knoppix
PclinuxOS

etc<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

"Could that have been achieved with "faulty leadership"? "

Yes , most of it came from others you just integrated it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

"Hardly. (in particular when you keep in mind that the Project Leader has some real power and influence). "

You guys crack me up. Its not funny , but your funny as hell.

"I think Debian is one of the biggest and most amazing sucesses of the free software movement"

Its actualy one of its biggest failure.

"and the Debian leadership has my utmost success and admiration."

Thats why you lend your support as : Anonymous Reader<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

"If you judge leaders by their results rather than their promises "

Problem is you falsely claiming result wich are not due to the Leadership at all<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

"Debian leaders are just about the best leaders one could dream of! "

Leaders are not made by others dreams they make other dreams a reality.

Debian is so bad and faulty that Red Hat is the current leader , there is two reason for GNU/Linux behing behind Microsoft the first big one is Red Hat buslhit , the second is Debian Leadership.

4/5 of what Debian as whas built by the GNU/linux community

Debian is not made irrelevant because of the Debian base , 9/10 of what there made of distinctively come from them not because of debian core.

------

Debian had they have had real leadership would be 65% of the Computer shipping today , they would have support/sale center in every big population city and on call service in almost every region of the Globe. They would have over 2000 paid developper who work 100% of the time on GNU/Linux Debian. They would have a product line that as no equal both on Desktop and Servers and at low cost too.

There not even on par with Ubuntu<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

But hey keep on thinking everything is puuuuurfect at Debian thats why it needs a DCC Alliance<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

When you decide to comeback to reality give me a sign otherwise crackpot like you make me sick to my stomack and whant to make me puke.

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n'importe quoi - et t'est meme pas ricain...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 21, 2005 08:02 PM
When you decide to comeback to reality give me a sign otherwise crackpot like you make me sick to my stomack and whant to make me puke

T'as vraiment l'air d'un nul quand tu t'enerves comme ca et, en plus, tu ne fait que dire des conneries. J'ai ete utilisateur de Mandrake pendant 5 ans avant de passer a Debian et je te jure que j'ai aucun regret. T'est pas oblige de me croire, mais tu pourrais t'abstenir d'ecrire n'importe quoi quand tu n'a manifestement *aucune* idee de Debian et de comment fonctionne sa communaute. Placer des "lol" et autres "rflol" ne fait que te donner l'air d'un adolescent boutonneux qui veux ce donner des airs de hackeur.

Je croyais que seuls les ricains etaient capables d'ecrire le genre de merdier que tu viens de poser ici. Helas, il sembles bien que je me sois trompe.

a+ et relaxe, mec!

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Re:careful Ian!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 21, 2005 04:34 AM
Actually, he didn't say that he was a decision-maker in the Debian project. He was asked by Mr. Graham, the reporter, about whether or not his role as the Debian founder "creates tension" and "may even contribute to the current disagreement." Ian answered honestly, that he is in fact the founder of Debian, and he of course has opinions about Debian, to use his words, "just like everyone else."

Ian merely pointed out that the fact that he's Debian's founder might draw more attention to his opinions than those of others (e. g. mine), and he's right. It'd be like if Linus were for some reason to leave the Linux kernel project and someone asked him for his opinion on it. We would do exactly like you say--listen to his opinion "with utmost respect." That's all that's happening here as well.

In short, I thinking you're making a bit of a leap here. Again, he's not saying he's any sort of decision maker for Debian. I don't see where he tried even to imply it. He's just expressing his opinion, like any of the rest of us do, and remember that he was asked to do so here.

I don't see anything inappropriate on this one.

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Re:careful Ian!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 21, 2005 09:17 PM
I don't see anything inappropriate on this one

True, but neither did the OP. These were words of caution, not of criticism.

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